A CLASH OF TRUTHS, A CLASH OF VALUES My Ongoing Debate With George Strohmann Bill Stockland LIBERAL VS CONSERVATIVE George Strohmann The Great Debate My words are in RED and Mr. Strohmann's are in Blue. Is it really a war between conservatives and liberals? How far should you go to win this confrontation? We're engaged in a war for the very survival of America as a God fearing, capitalist country. It is a war in every sense of the word and when you're at war there are NO limits on tactics. We don't wish to defeat the liberals. We want to destroy them. God is on our side. It should be pretty obvious even to liberals that God selected President Bush in the election of 2000. Armed with that assurance, conservatives were justified in carrying out any act (legal or illegal) to see that God's will was done in the 2004 election. Just as the five Godly members of the Supreme Court stepped up in 2000, God's people stepped up in 2004. We're accused of lying and cheating in the election. We will be judged by the results. A Godly end justifies any means. When you're at war you don't pussyfoot around. Let's be perfectly honest. Look at how God has guided events so that his people now control the world's wealth and power. Do you see liberals accumulating billions of dollars in the marketplace? There is a Divine plan behind why some are rich and most are poor. Allow me to say what none dare to say. Over the years we have had a few examples of assassinations, assassination attempts and accidents. Notice who survived assassination attempts and accidents and who didn't. Don't you see the hand of God behind the survival of conservative Presidents Reagan, Ford and Nixon when people attempted to kill them? Notice that God also healed Presidents Reagan, Eisenhower and Bush 41 and Vice President Cheney from illness. Great conservative leader Governor Wallace survived an assassin's bullet. There is a long list of conservatives who have been healed or shielded by God. Liberal heroes John, Robert and Joseph Kennedy all were killed. God chose to remove his protective hand from such liberals as John Kennedy Jr., Paul Wellstone, Hubert Humphrey, Hughie Long, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Lyndon Johnson and so many others who died before their time. With God on our side we have more than the right to destroy our enemies, we have the duty. ...George Strohmann For liberals it is not a war. We are in a political contest to lead and improve our country and by extension, the world. We welcome honest debate and disagreement. All sides should be heard and decisions should be openly crafted and should respect the principle of compromise. We honor our Constitution and Bill Of Rights. These marvelous documents call for the creation of a democratic republic where the free exercise of speech protects rather than limits rights. If you win an American election by cheating and dishonest campaigning you end up destroying what you win. America belongs to everyone. Each of us has rights but they are not to be exercised in such a way as to deprive others of their rights. Governments are instituted to preserve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for ALL people, not a select few who have learned to unfairly manipulate the marketplace and the ballot box. ...Bill Stockland What is the difference between a liberal and a conservative? In modern times the term liberal is used to describe people who believe in equality and freedom. Liberals are in the forefront of those seeking change and improvement. A liberal just sees the best in mankind. We see a woman breast feeding a baby in a park and think about joy and sweetness...and love. A conservative sees the same scene and is disgusted by such a public display. A liberal sees a deer nuzzling her fawn and we are overcome with an appreciation of natural wonder. A conservative sees the same scene and remarks that if he had his rifle he could kill them both. Liberals are quick to spend their money for the good of mankind. We see government as a tool for improving life for all people. Conservatives value money and power above most things. Some conservatives value money and power above ALL things. Liberals tend to be generous while conservatives generally have a selfish agenda when they part with a dollar. Truthfully, there really aren't any liberals. There are people with liberal tendencies and beliefs but they are not members of some unbending doctrinaire group such as you will find with the so called conservatives. These people called liberals generally examine each issue and allow their spiritual beliefs and social consciences to guide them in taking their stands. With the so called liberals you will find surprising (to lock step conservatives) variations on individual beliefs. Conservatives on the other hand, will rarely deviate from a strict party line orientation expressed in talking points disseminated by a handful of talk show hosts. It's easier to be a conservative. You don't have to think. Conservatives fear change because it threatens their wallets and power fixation. For conservatives there really aren't any moral values. Their public stands on moral issues are entirely negotiable and are mainly used as wedge issues in elections and advertising. Conservatives don't have principles and values so much as they have agendas and goals. ...Bill Stockland Conservatives believe the role of government is to preserve property rights. We feel God intended for man to live in a capitalist world. "God helps those who help themselves" should be in the Bible. Wealth is the true measure of a man's value. Accumulated wealth represents proof of God's favor. Christianity is the only true religion and American history and destiny are intrinsically intertwined with it. What is good for America is good for God and vice versa. The natural world is here to be exploited by private individuals and government has been created to further those ends. Liberals are thieves and liars. Their taxes are used to steal from the rich. Liberals are against God. They are unpatriotic and in many cases downright treasonous. America is the richest and most powerful nation on earth. Simply put, conservatives support this while liberals have always worked against America. Conservatives are right on all issues because we don't cling to the feel good emotions that sap strength from true Americanism. ...George Strohmann How do conservatives and liberals differ on religion? Conservatives recognize the Christian religion as the only true religion. Period. End of debate. Jesus Christ is Lord and no one will enter Heaven without being a born again Christian. When you receive Jesus as your personal savior you will be saved. This salvation is eternal. Everyone else is out of luck. God hates sin but offers his love to sinners. If you reject this offer you are doomed to hell. Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews and errant followers of fringe Christian religions that don't teach the need to be born again will experience damnation and it is their own fault. Certainly pro abortion people, homosexuals, socialists and other sinners are vile in the sight of God and it is the duty of all true Americans to oppose them on all fronts and by any means. ...George Strohmann The god of conservatives is an angry god who is not found in any of the scriptures they claim as their key sources. Liberals embrace the love that emanates from each of the major religions trashed by conservatives. The true teachings of Eastern religions, Islam and Judaism are prescriptions for peace on earth. It is interesting that conservatives publicly make political common cause with economic conservatives in Jewish, Mormon, Catholic and certain Protestant groups but privately teach that members of these same groups are certain of hellfire. This flexibility suggests that most of these conservatives are merely using religion to further their accumulation of power and wealth. Strangely, the Bible's New Testament reserves its most severe criticism for hypocrites. Only the conservatives god would create Gay people and then damn them for being created. Similarly, this conservative deity will create a child in some desolate region of the world while insisting on the child's damnation when no missionary is able to reach the area with the conservative's strange gospel...all the while proclaiming love of children! ...Bill Stockland How does the issue of abortion illustrate and define the differences between conservatives and liberals? I've never met a liberal who was pro abortion. Liberals are pro choice simply because the very nature of pregnancy requires that subsequent reproductive decisions are the sole territory of the woman. Abortion is a difficult decision and one that isn't taken lightly by anyone. Conservatives fraudulently call themselves pro life. They are not. Conservatives use abortion as a political wedge issue. It translates into votes and the issue is trotted out whenever there are other issues the conservatives wish to avoid facing. If conservatives were truly pro life they would be lying in front of the troop trains leaving for one of our frequent wars and police actions. Conservatives do not object to our "Shock and awe" military techniques which by definition will result in the deaths and mutilations of innocent babies and children. In fact, conservatives take pride in such displays of lethal power. After the murderous attack on our country on 9/11 conservatives were screaming for retaliation against the innocent people in Afghanistan as well as the guilty. Later, conservatives were quick to defend an attack on Iraq that has resulted in the admitted deaths and woundings of thousands of innocent people. This attack was a choice on the part of conservatives. That choice was made knowing that so called collateral damage would result in the death of infants, children and mothers. Furthermore, conservatives support (sometimes gleefully) the practice of capital punishment. No reasonable person now denies that innocent people are sometimes put to death due to mistakes and illegal actions. Many conservatives view the abortion issue as part of the larger issue of contraception and reproductive rights. Conservatives believe in control of people according to their narrow views of religion. Liberals and conservatives who would like to see late term abortions ended cannot do so because the right wingers use the problem as a wedge issue. They further wish to use a banning of this practice as a precedent to outlaw all free choice. Conservatives are believers in choice but it is THEIR choice they believe in. They want to decide when and where life will be terminated. ...Bill Stockland Liberals are baby killers. Abortion even one second after conception is murder. Human life is sacred and judges, doctors and politicians who support abortion should face execution. Those who kill and destroy abortionists and their abortion chambers are acting out of the deepest spiritual values. They should be honored instead of prosecuted. Abortion for any reason should be outlawed. Beyond abortion, it is time that we come to grips with the whole concept of birth control. All methods of interference with natural conception is a violation of God's law. Popes and other religious leaders have taught this for centuries. ...George Strohmann How do conservatives and liberals differ on the Iraq War and President Bush? Is the war just? Should President Bush be treated as a war criminal? Should he be impeached? Your questions border on treason. These are the kinds of disloyal things liberals say. This kind of treatment of a president of the United States is disgraceful. Patriotic Americans do not disrespect their president. We're not talking about that liar and thief Clinton or that Communist Carter. President Bush is a good man and deeply religious. If he sees the need to lead us into war then we are duty bound to believe in our president. An American war is a just war by definition because we are a just country led by a just man. If you love America you will love and follow President Bush. Saddam Hussein had hundreds of tons of weapons of mass destruction and our army has found these under the president's leadership. Our vice president proved Saddam had hundreds of nuclear bombs and missiles aimed at the US. President Bush and his cabinet proved Saddam was responsible for 9/11. How much proof do you need? War criminal? Impeached? How dare you use these terms in the same conversation about President Bush. You are abusing freedom of speech. The Constitution does not permit you to say disgraceful things about our government and its leaders. Soldiers are dying for our president and his righteousness. Those who criticize our president are attacking our brave young men and women who are answering the call to arms just as our president did in his youth. The Patriot Act should be invoked to begin rounding up those who criticize our president and his party. ...George Strohmann Liberals are very reluctant to criticize war activities while we have soldiers in danger. There were conservatives who used terms like "Wag the dog" when President Clinton sent soldiers to foreign shores. Liberals are more respectful of our troops. Iraq is looking to be another Vietnam. No weapons of mass destruction have been found...no connection between 9/11 and Saddam have been found and all attempts to find a nuclear weapons program have failed. Apparently we went to war based on lies and deceit. Those who lied to cause a war have committed treason and murder. Such people are war criminals. ANYONE who is convicted of treason, murder and/or war crimes deserves to be punished. Let the chips fall where justice dictates. As to impeachment and disrespecting a president please recall the deceitful campaign launched against President Clinton. Liberals will stick to the facts when exercising their constitutional right to criticize their leaders. ...Bill Stockland Is the press liberal or conservative? Is the press a problem for American freedom? A free press is the best defense against a loss of freedom. There are a few press outlets that some people feel are merely the propaganda wing of the Republican Party. In all fairness, Fox News, The Washington Times and most talk show hosts seldom stray from the Republican Party line. That is fine as long as they are independent of government control and I'd rather have people I disagree with free to preach their message than to have my political favorites have the power to silence them. The Bill Of Rights didn't give us our rights, it was written to protect them. We have a problem today in the fact that advertising rules our airways like never before. Most advertising dollars come from businesses that tend to favor the pro business/ pro wealth policies of Republicans. Therefore most radio and TV news bureaus and talk show hosts will be Republican oriented. This is dangerous when these news bureaus actually censor the news as has been done lately. Today we have a new kind of political correctness...it is a conservative litmus test that all networks and radio stations must meet in order to satisfy those with the money. Government should stay out of this problem except in the area of returning radio and TV to return to their public service origin. The answer probably lies in having more local radio and TV channels allocated while preventing the over accumulation of stations by one company. Even in this the government should be made to tread lightly. ...Bill Stockland Everyone knows the press is liberal. The press and talk show hosts should be Americans first and that means conservative! Liberals don't promote or support America. We are currently at war and because of terrorism we will always be at war. War calls for special action. The Federal Government should license and control the news just like our enemies do. Fight fire with fire. ...George Strohmann What about gay marriage? What about it? It's sin plain and simple. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. A Christian and a patriot must fight against this satanic idea. Gay marriage! The very thought of men loving men and women loving women is repulsive to real men and real women. As conservatives we defend marriage. We need a constitutional amendment that makes performing or entering a gay marriage a crime. Mark my words. If you allow gays to have marriages you will be opening the door to America being damned and destroyed by a loving God. ...George Strohmann My grade school Catechism said we were all made by God in his image. It's simple. God doesn't make mistakes. God made Gay people. You should be able to figure the rest of it out. God made Gay people so where do we get the right to discriminate against them? Hate does not lend dignity to Christians. How will Gay marriage have a negative impact on me or my marriage? When did marriage and marriage benefits become a competition? I know when they became a political wedge issue though. Conservatives in the 90's soon realized that the Christian Church could be used to spread hatred that could be turned into votes. They learned that we could be tricked into ignoring what they were doing with the money and the military if they could find some hot button issues that could be manipulated to take advantage of our weakness for prejudice. Gay marriage is a gift to conservatives from their angry god. I am always amused when politicians and religious leaders who are known for their frequent divorces, marital infidelity and loose sexual morals support and promote things given names like "The Defense Of Marriage Act." "Woe unto you, scribes, and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." ...Bill Stockland What would you like to say about the other side? Most people aren't liberals or conservatives. They are moderates. They believe in compromise, cooperation and compassion. The so called conservative politicians distort issues and prey on the emotions and fears of the people. They play us off one against the other in sort of a magician's diversion of our attention. The results can be horrible. Remember the tragic dragging murder of a black man in Texas and the killing of an innocent Gay young man in Wyoming? Do you think these crimes were the acts of people who would be considered on the conservative side or the liberal side? Obviously these were the acts of people influenced by conservative teaching. This philosophy brings out the worst in people because it is built on greed and uses hate as a political tool. I am not comfortable with labeling people...I am especially leery forcing them to be placed in one of two narrow groups. As I said, most people are actually moderates who can see both sides if they are not manipulated by dishonest politicians, religious charlatans and greedy capitalists. I am also against giving liberals unchallenged and unquestioned control of society. We need all sides to contribute ideas. I really could live and prosper in a country led by HONEST liberals or HONEST conservatives. They are hard to find especially in this age of partisan political warfare. When and if liberals regain a majority in our government I would hope they welcome the participation, input and influence of honest conservatives. ...Bill Stockland Liberals have a sickening sympathy for the poor. The poor are poor because they are weak. America and God have no respect for the weak...they get what they deserve. Liberals are bleeding hearts who whine about the environment. God made America great because we have exploited the environment to build our wealth and power. Future generations will get the world we choose to leave them and if they're too weak to survive in it we are not at fault. America is tired of tree hugging, compassionate men and women who worry about every animal and every little child. We will return to greatness when our men are warriors and our women serve them. You can tell who God favors by who has wealth and power. Liberals hide behind documents like the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights. They once were important documents but today they are pieces of paper of historical value only. The most important piece of paper today is the American Dollar. ...George Strohmann What is your attitude toward labor unions? Unions are an abomination. A worker should stand before his employer at the end of the week and face judgment. His pay should be based on what the employer feels he has accomplished that week as well as his attitude. This goes beyond mere economics. This is a moral, even a spiritual, question. The worker who does not give his absolute best each time his employer calls on him is a thief. Labor unions have created such disasters as overtime pay, the ridiculous 40 hour work week, paid vacations and fringe benefits such as retirement pensions and health insurance. God intended for man to work and he intended the boss to be the master. The worker SHOULD be stressed at the fear of losing his job. Let me ask you one question. If the poor are so special when was the last time a poor man hired somebody? No one has a right to work and if our government had its priorities straight labor agitators would be treated as the criminals they are. There was a time when employers could practice blacklists and take part in collective efforts with other employers to stamp out union activities. Labor unions are a form of communism and communism is the enemy of God. Figure it out for yourself. a Christian cannot be in a union and keep his soul. An employer should have the right to hire and fire for any reason including, but not limited to, religion, politics and race. ...George Strohmann As usual, my opponent has shown the dollar sign to be the sign of his cross. We all say we believe in family values. What things in the workplace have done more for the family than the 40 hour work week, overtime pay, vacations and health and retirement benefits? His ilk are now going after retirees pensions and the Social Security system. They won't be content until they have EVERYTHING. What this a$$ and his cohorts don't want you to know is what conditions were like for the working people and their families in earlier times. Workers were treated worse than we can now treat animals. People were literally worked to an early grave. Wives and children often had to work in dangerous, stuffy, cold/hot, poorly lit sweat shops where they were routinely abused physically. Children were hired for dangerous jobs because they could be intimidated and beaten. People of all ages were crippled and then fired. Unions? You'll get them if you deserve them but Strohmann and his kind are now using the bullying power of the government (Federal. state and local) to attack unions. Oh, they sometimes allow one union to exist. Many of them look the other way at the power of some police unions. Their blue clad bullies are called upon to enforce the rules union busters create. They look upon them as a necessary evil. Right-wingers have a history of trotting out their cadres of useful idiots whenever their wallets are threatened. ...Bill Stockland What are your views on the state of education today? Education is in crisis thanks to conservatives. They like to point to the exclusion of prayer from the classroom. They point to drugs and sex education. They like to blame teacher's unions and free lunch programs. As usual, they are trying to divert attention from the real problems. Poverty and prejudice are causing many little children to suffer. The schools reflect this suffering and even add to it when conservatives are in charge as they usually are. OK right-wingers, Jerry Falwell can lead a prayer every morning, sex education will be outlawed along with unions, drugs will be zealously hunted down and eliminated at all cost. How long will it be before test scores show dramatic improvement? Right. You see, the problem is poverty and hopelessness. Your whining complaints are diversions. These conservative clowns squirt their seltzer bottles and create achievement tests and big headlines but they won't free up the money needed to make schools real places of hope and achievement. Their achievement tests are made more difficult each time the scores begin to improve. Why? It is to ensure that a percentage of poor children fail! This is reprehensible and cowardly. That's right, I'm calling conservatives who do this reprehensible cowards but I'm not afraid of facing them in angry confrontation. Cowards pick on little children and steal from the old. Their best shot at bravery will consist of trying to buy this web site and silence me. The current joke is the voucher! This is beautiful. They'd like to give a voucher which can then be taken to a chosen school and applied toward tuition. This serves the conservative two ways. It strikes a blow against teacher's unions because private schools will be zealously anti union and it subsidizes the wealthier among us. You see, they will never have the amount of the voucher cover ALL of the tuition or expenses. The schools for the wealthy will raise their costs well beyond the amount of the voucher. A Five Thousand Dollar voucher will not help a poor child attend a school that charges $10,000 but it will be a nice subsidy for the fat cat customer of the expensive school. It will also help subsidize religious schools but don't be surprised if there is not some sort of religious litmus test to weed out "unpopular" religions. I said earlier that conservatives have agendas rather than principles. In their twisted world the end (the accumulation of wealth and power) justifies the means. They will do ANYTHING to win. Abuse poor little children? My God, they are willing to drop bombs on little children for political and economic reasons! The truth means nothing to such people. Their truths are elastic and fit the situation. Prayer in school? They don't want prayer in schools, they want school prayer to be a wedge issue to gain votes just like they don't want to eliminate abortion. Ever notice their stands on flag burning? They're against it an clamor for laws even though even such legal scholars (?) as Scalia and Thomas would most likely agree these laws would be unconstitutional. The laws cannot be made or enforced but that is part of the plan. The issue never goes away and can be trotted out as an issue in close elections. It makes for a nice bumper sticker doesn't it though? Liberals abhor flag burning and abortion but we love our Bill Of Rights. We don't want to burn our flag but we'd certainly like to fix the problems that lead others to consider such acts. Regardless, we support their right to free expression, and our right to confront those who burn the flag. We counsel against abortion but we'd like to see a world where a mother doesn't have to look at her pregnancy through the eyes of despair. We must follow the law and defend a woman's right to choose. We believe with the person who said: "there will be prayer in school as long as there are math tests." I don't want the Christian to concoct forced prayers to his angry god. Common sense and spirituality require this. The US Constitution demands it. ...Bill Stockland Schools have been destroyed because the liberals have made war on God. Liberals want school nurses to perform abortions. Liberals don't even want children to pray silently to themselves. Schools are in shambles because the poor don't know how to act. If a child doesn't achieve well in school we should create work camps or a larger army for them. Schools should prepare the children of the motivated and talented for higher education and their natural role as leaders. The others should be taught the reading and math needed to become loyal workers. All should be taught the Bible and its principles. Silence the liberals? You're damn right they should be silenced. Americanism means supporting our economic system and our power structure. If your ship is sinking you are justified in doing anything to keep it floating and on the right path. Conservatives stand for America. Criticism of conservatism is criticism of America. The Constitution and Bill Of Rights were not created to help people criticize America. ...George Strohmann What are your thoughts on the future of America and the future of mankind? God created certain peoples to lead and when needed, to rule. It is the natural order of things. Somehow there developed in the 20th Century an insidious idea about equality. God didn't make us all equal. Instead of government striving to create equality, government should be enforcing the natural superiority of those God favors. There is no future for mankind if America does not straighten out its priorities. Natural leaders must be followed. Religion must reestablish the position that God created what we have and this same God has chosen the wealthy and powerful or they wouldn't be in positions of leadership. The future is bleak unless we regain control of governments, religions and civilizations. We are to subdue the world and its people. The environmentalists and other bleeding hearts should stay out of the way. It is nonsense to think about the world we're leaving to the future. Coming generations can just play the hand we deal them just as we have played what was left to us. ...George Strohmann America will have a lot to say about the future of mankind. Do we really love our children and grandchildren? If we do, we will be concerned about the world we leave them. Global warming and poverty can rip the future apart. Terrorism and warfare are not the answers but rather than just looking for military responses to them, we must also look to address the causes. America can return to greatness but it will have to be a greatness that is born from benevolent actions and true love of all mankind. All of the great religions of the world have taught the doctrine of love. These religions were never intended to be tools used by politicians and greedy business people. Buddha once said: "Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." The Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) once said: "Do you love your creator? Love your fellow beings first." And Jesus Christ said: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." Within those quotes you will find hope for the future of America and all mankind. ...Bill Stockland Is it acceptable for the US to use torture and terror techniques as part of its defense and foreign policy? What would Jesus really do? Can you imagine what he would have said about torture and terrorism? What does the rest of the world think about us? Will they accuse us of war crimes? Ask yourself this question. If we ever lose a war would our leaders and citizens be treated as we have treated the conquered Nazi leaders and citizens? Would our president, congress and judges be put on trial? If you defend torture and terrorism by ANYONE, you are neither a patriot nor a Christian. ...Bill Stockland God wants us to torture and kill our enemies if it furthers our cause. Jesus would favor even the torture of women and children who oppose our control of the world. The liberals always forget that we are always 100% right and we have the God ordained duty to protect our property and spread our beliefs. Fortunately, most Christian religious leaders agree with us. Those that oppose America doing God's work might benefit from being tortured or seeing their loved ones tortured until they accept the real Jesus. ...George Strohmann Special thanks to the right wing radio and television personalities who provided me with this debating technique. I'm simply doing what they do everyday. In case you haven't figured it out, George Strohmann exists only as a conglomerate of right wing attitudes. In German, Strohmann would be translated as "Straw Man." The Straw Man "debating" technique involves setting up an imaginary opposition person or position and then attacking that entity. You define the beliefs of the other side and then attack those definitions. By carefully misconstruing what the other side believes you are controlling both sides of the debate. It's a little like playing chess against yourself. In the rare situations where an actual competent representative of the opposition opinion is given opportunity to speak, you can achieve the same result by waiting until the other person leaves to misrepresent what they said and carry on the "debate" with the other person no longer available to defend their position. The modern version of this tactic will involve taking sound, print and video clips out of context and attacking those as if they were accurate. Sadly, the attitudes I represented as coming from the right winger George Strohmann are not fictional. In some form or degree I have heard each expressed by a zealot from that side.